Yo Ben

[HoustonLX]

You got your wish. The coupe is now legal for Cheap Street. You even get to add on that 88mm turbo. Unfortunately you have to also add 250 lbs to the car. :bs:

http://www.theclashofthetitans.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=588

[Timebomb]

I like it and I think Freddy did a good thing to try and get the car count up. It will be interesting to see what happens with the class, lots of FSTA guys could run, but in order to keep those cars with a stock rear suspension competitive I think the 200 pounds is about right. I have no idea if I'll be competitive but I'll at least try....

I really like the fact that I don't have to worry about the exception items anymore, I'll be there with probably one of the only small block nitrous cars at 3000 pounds.

[Blue91]

From what I read, he would have to be 3300lb (3000 + 100 for v8 IC and 200 for ladder bars). I don't know how much he weighs in at now but I "thought" it was around 3k. Time to get some ballast bars and make sure the weight is placed in the right spots to keep the suspension working.

[HoustonLX]

From what I read, he would have to be 3300lb (3000 + 100 for v8 IC and 200 for ladder bars). I don't know how much he weighs in at now but I "thought" it was around 3k.

Ben's car with him weighed 3,050 lbs at the last COTT. Which is why I said he had to add 250 lbs.

[Saleen91]

WOOHOO. Finally SOMETHING to work with. The biggest thing I needed out of that is what size turbo. Time to start researching!

I replied to it. I think 200# is a bit too much for ladder bars, and I would like to see the A/W intercooler guys come and play too and suggested allowing them, but with a weight penalty for a/w vs just a/a intercoolers.

[White90GT]

Did you guys notice there is no longer an ET limit???

[Timebomb]

Yes, Freddy is tring to keep the field in the 8.80 range or so. I'm kind of baised about the ladder bar rule (mainly becuase I don't have aldder bars) but 200 seems fair to me. If the rules need to be adjusted after the second race then it can be.

[Saleen91]

The rules have been faxed to my turbo guy... all I can say is "MUahahahahahahaha" *evil grin* Having said that I won't be legal for FFW S/R with what he's talking about...which is ok by me. It'll be cheaper for me to run in O/C than in a heads up class like S/R. Not to mention the rules for S/R in 06 really favor the BBF/Large stroke SBF N2o crowd IMO (2600# for up to 460 cubes!!!)

If the weight for ladder bars stick in COTT's C/S, I think my biggest problem will be determining how I can add the needed 250# to my car...and WHERE! That's a lot of weight to distribute across a car, and make it to where it's removable if I want to run in another event/class. I know I'll have to add weight regardless.

[HoustonLX]

On the good side, you actually have a reason to NOT go on a diet. I can see it now...

doctor..... "You should go on a diet. You could stand to lose a few pounds."

Ben.... "I can't Doc. I have to make race weight."

:thumb:

[maveRick]

I think my biggest problem will be determining how I can add the needed 250# to my car...and WHERE!
Intersting (the placement of the ballast box, how it should be attached, cost, etc)

f.y.i reading

"The Science of Straight"

'One way to improve the weight bias is to install a weight or ballast box in the rear of the car.'

http://www.musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mm_0503_drag/

http://musclemustangfastfords.com/tech/mm_0503_drag_18_z.jpg

additionally: "only 100 pounds may be added to the ballast box. If additional weight is required, it must be permanently attached, per NHRA regulations"
(source: http://www.superstockforum.com/showthread.php?threadid=5833

'Don't know about that last part - just came across it and thought I'd mention it in case there was a limit of how much loose weight you could have (in your class)

There is a thread on ballast boxes at [url]http://centexhotrods.com/phpbb2/login.php?redirect=vie

me thinks you'll need 3 boxes :eek:

[FE_rex]

read the rules. Permenantly attached may mean attached with qty 2 size 1/2 inch bolts for every 50 lbs or something like that.

[Thoroughbred]

I want a turbo guy....*kicks rocks*

[Saleen91]

It's amazing the diffrence in rules.

COTT's Cheap Street rules about turbo's:


Turbo limited to 88mm

FFW's Street Renegade rules about turbo's:

Single turbocharger permitted. Turbocharger inducer size limited to 88MM (tip to tip), measured at the leading edge of the compressor blades. All incoming air is required to travel through the inducer from the front of the inducer and cannot be introduced to the compressor blades through ports or slots of any kind. FFW approved re-circulation ports permitted.

Things that make you "hmmmmm"

[Blue91]

I wouldn't build a turbo like you're thinking (what was spelled out as prohibited in FFW) b/c as soon as you do, people at COTT will find out, gripe about it, and the COTT rules will get spelled out in greater detail to make your turbo illegal. I'd just stick with what's the intent of the rule.

That's just me though. If you're getting the turbo for free (since you have a turbo guy), then go for the "legal-only-b/c-it's-not-said-to-be-illegal" turbo.

[maveRick]

read the rulesRules? RULES?!

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE RULES! [/Jack Nicholson]

[FE_rex]

ok nurse ratched

[Timebomb]

I don't think that an "outlaw" 88mm turbo would be looked at very well according to Freddy and the spirit of the rules of the class. Don't give them a reason to exclude you from the class, you will have more than enough power with a 88mm and ladder bars to be competitive. Just my $.02

[TxBandit]

I say go for it Ben. I'd bet that most, if not all, of the guys associated with the Clash would be able to tell that you had an "outlaw" turbo.

Troy

[Saleen91]

Last years rules had a guy, who works for Murillo, running an Outlaw 88mm turbo that was necked down to 76mm for the rules in COTT's Cheap Street. Freddy saw this, knew the car, and the owner (Dean with the teal 95GT). He didn't change the rules for 2006 to rule that out. So IMO, it's fair game. The Pro 5.0 guys do that all the time. They'll build outlaw style 80-something to 90-something mm turbos for FFW and then neck them down for NMRA, Orlando World Street Nationals, etc. There was a pic in a recent 5.0 Mustang of Randy Aikens Pro 5.0 car that had just that. 2 forward facing 80-90something mm turbos with collars in them to neck them down to 76mm.

As I'm finding out, racing heads up is all about finding the grey areas in the rules that you can stretch. For example FFW's D/R class says NOTHING about traction control. Do you think Big Daddy has a form of traction control on his car?

and btw, here's freddy's comments on the extra 200# for ladder bar cars...


I saw the 200lbs issue with Cheap Street but you tell me how much faster can a ladder bar car with the same power go faster then a stock suspension car?
I think about 2 tenths that is 200lbs.
This is the way i am looking at it right now. Tell me how you see it? Besides most cars with ladder bars are the heavy chevys that weigh 3400+ lbs anyways.

I still don't agree with it. I want to put my words together before replying to him. I just don't see how 2 cars making the exact same power and the only difference being a stock style suspension vs ladder bars being worth 2 tenths.

[Blue91]

Well, I just hope it's not outlawed after you've spent some big coin on it. Good luck.

[Saleen91]

Freddy typically doesn't change the rules until after the first 2 races. If I'm blowing everybodies doors off by .5 then I can see him changing the rules. But for now nobody knows how I'll do. I'm sure the other C/S racers are making their upgrades as well. I'm more concerned with how, and where, to add 250#.

[Blue91]

I don't know the answer, hence my question, BUT...

Why would people go to Ladder Bars over stock style suspension if there wasn't any significant gain in doing so? An uneducated outsider like myself would think if you'd go through all that trouble/money/labor to go to ladder bars, they better help the car hook and perform better. If not, what a waste.

[Saleen91]

I'm not saying that there isn't anything to gain with ladder bars over stock style. I think ladder bars SHOULD have a weight penalty. I just don't think that they're worth a 200# weight penalty.

Look at Kyle Heuttel (sp?). He's running blazingly fast in FSTA. Martin probably knows his ET's, but I believe their in the 5.50's range and he's doing it on a stock style suspension. Do you think ladder bars would knock a full tenth off of his 8th mile ET without ANY other changes?

I may be wrong, but I don't see him going from a 5.50 to a 5.40 with just ladder bars and everything else staying the same.

[Timebomb]

This is an entry level heads up class Ben, with one poweradder. Kyle has multiple stages of nitrous on a BBC chevy motor, sure he's gonna run fast regardless of what suspension he's on. Ladder bars would knock a ton off his ET (yes probably at least .2 in the 1.8th) and be much easier to set the car up and launch consistangly. A 200 pound weight break is about where it needs to be to level the playing field. Besides all the faster FSTA guys are going to be running true 10.5 anyway!

[Saleen91]

I was just using Kyle as an example. I still don't see him gaining that much ET with ladder bars over what he has without changing anything else.

I know this isn't an apples to apples comparison, but my best 60' in the heavy convertible was a 1.47. The best in the coupe was a 1.32. That's a difference of .15. How much of that difference do you think is related to the 700# weight difference between the cars and how much do you think was stock suspension vs ladder bars? I believe more than HALF of that .15 is related to the weight difference and I know some of the difference is because I'm running more boost with the coupe than what I ever did with the vert. Llook at your coupe Brent. What's your best 60'? 1.3-something. You're on stock style suspension, making less power than what I was with the vert, but the weight difference between our 2 cars was HUGE (more than 700#)!

Anyway, if I have to take a 200# hickey for it I will just so I can race. It looks like I won't be hitting the head before going to the staging lanes anymore, like I did with the vert. :)

[TxBandit]

I have a few comments on some of the statemens that have been made.

1) If a guy doesn't push the rules as hard as possible, and find these "gray areas" then that guy will never win. Drag racing is about spending money, and lots of it, if you plan to win. If a guy buys a part and it makes his car blazingly fast then two races later that part is outlawed this will push that guy to find other areas to gain his ET back, and he WILL find other ways to get it back. We usually refer to this guy as a winner.

2) The statement that Freddy made about ladder bars being two tenths faster than stock style suspension proves that he has no clue about late model Mustang suspension and he is clearly stuck in the leaf spring days. IMO the only advantage to ladder bars over stock style Mustang suspension is the fact that as long as you are in the ballpark on the setup the car will work. The 4 link style Mustang suspension requires a little more finesse and some fine tuning to really work well. Take a good look at FFW S/R, the car which led the pack this past season was a true stock suspension car with bolt on parts. It didn't have all the trick relocation of the stock attachment points. I firmly believe that a properly setup late model Mustang suspension is less than 1/2 a tenth behind a properly setup ladder bar suspension system.

Troy

[Blue91]

Hmm, I guess since Ben has money to spend on parts that may be outlawed in 2 races and I have no money to even attempt to race, he's a winner and I'm a loser. ;) :blue:

I should just get my heap back on the road before caring what anyone else does with their cars.

[HoustonLX]

While hanging out with Ben and listening to Chris (Mud Duck) at the last COTT, I am convinced that those that win the classes are those that find the grey areas within the rules and push them as far as they can. Those that follow the rules to the T are those that will not win. IMO, as long as a certain rule does not specifically say you can not have "X" on your car, you are not breaking any rules.

[Saleen91]

I don't know why you guys think outlaw style turbos will be outlawed after 2 races. I know of atleast ONE outlaw turbo car that was in C/S all last year and not only was it NOT outlawed last year, it's not outlawed this year in the preliminary rules. They were also being using is OTHER classes within COTT (Outlaw 10.5). Freddy has seen them, knows that they were being used, has allowed them, and according to the preliminary rules will continue to allow them. FFW D/R has allowed them for years still allows them in the 2006 rules. FFW S/R does not, but then again this is the first year that FFW S/R is even allowing turbos.

The bottom line is I haven't listed any specifics of what I AM GOING TO DO because at this point all I have been doing is research. I have yet to even spend $1 on a turbo. It's also my money and my car and I race it how I wish.

As Dwayne "Big Daddy" Guthridge says "the more u test, the faster u will go".. when asked about the rule changes allowing larger motors than the one he just finished building.

[TxBandit]

Hmm, I guess since Ben has money to spend on parts that may be outlawed in 2 races and I have no money to even attempt to race, he's a winner and I'm a loser. ;) :blue:

You cannot be classified as a loser if you do not participate. :blue:

Troy

[Blue91]

No one is saying anything is definitive Ben. We're all giving our opinions just like you're giving yours. No one is saying you've decided on a concrete plan nor is anyone telling you how to spend your money.

[white87306]

Ben, I know a couple of dirt track guys with scales (4 corner) if you want to check your ratio and look for the best weight placement. Let me know and I'll si~ if I can get you hooked up.

[89 coupe]

Look at Kyle Heuttel (sp?). He's running blazingly fast in FSTA. Martin probably knows his ET's, but I believe their in the 5.50's range and he's doing it on a stock style suspension. Do you think ladder bars would knock a full tenth off of his 8th mile ET without ANY other changes?

I may be wrong, but I don't see him going from a 5.50 to a 5.40 with just ladder bars and everything else staying the same.
Kyle has run into the 5.1x times I know and maybe a 5.0x but not sure. I have ran 5.49 recently and Kyle will have to abort a pass for me to win.
He consistently 60 fts, just watch the car. It has to be in the 1.2x range I believe every clean pass, which is most of them. He has run 7.9x times quarter mile. I don't believe going ladder bar with his car would help him any. He has been working with that car for several years now and has it figured out. Stock type suspension is usually harder to get setup correctly but once it is, I don't believe any ladder bar setup is faster. At least not on a true 10.5 tire, you can only hook up what the tire allows.