FYI: SBF People

[Saleen91]

I just picked up some interesting information recently. It seems that TFS is now going after AFR by offering their own 185cc & 205cc CNC ported heads...straight from TFS!

Brian Tooley, from TEA, who made his business around custom CNC porting of TFS TW heads says the new CNC offerings from TFS out flow his offerings and he will be selling the TFS CNC ported versions as well. You can see these new heads already being offered via Summit.
185cc (http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&part=TFS%2D51400004%2DC01&N=4294925232+4294838998+400098+4294908331+42948401 26&rsview=sku&autoview=sku&Ns=P%5FSRE%5FDisplayPrice%7C1)
205cc (http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&part=TFS%2D51400004%2DC02&N=4294925232+4294838998+400098+4294908331+42948401 26&rsview=sku&autoview=sku&Ns=P%5FSRE%5FDisplayPrice%7C1)

Brian says that these new heads "are based off new custom castings, all new port designs and all new CNC programs. They are superior to the TEA 185/205 heads of the past." :eek:

So for those of you looking at purchasing AFR's or porting TFS heads, you might want to look at this option. I don't have any flow data on them as of yet.

Also, I find it interesting as this squashes TEA's main stream product line of custom CNC'ing TFS heads. I know TEA does other heads, and not just for SBF's, but that particular head is what put TEA on the map. I just hope it doesn't put Tooley out of business. He's a great guy and extremely knowledgable. I learned more about air flow from talking to him in 1 hour than everything else I knew up to that point. Also, TEA has left its' home town of Bowling Green, KY and moved to Akron, OH. I don't know what the reasons were behind the move, but I do know that both Summit AND TFS are based in Ohio so I can only hope that Brian has something to do with these new heads...behind the scenes.

[HoustonLX]

I would like to see and compare the flow rates of the new TFS 185's to TEA's 185's. Being a former owner of TEA's 185's, I am really interested. Summit's price alone for the 185's also beats the price I paid TEA for their 185's. Better flowing heads at a cheaper price? I hope Tooley has something do with this new design. Otherwsie he is in trouble.

[Saleen91]

FYI,

I just heard back from Brian...


Yes, I am doing all of the port design/CNC programming for the new TW CNC ported heads, they are killer, nicer then the old stuff, because now we have a dedicated casting just for CNC porting.

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

[89LX306]

I heard somewhere through the grapevine that Summit bought out TEA and that is what brought this all about. Is there any truth to that. If I had a Mustang I'd definitely take a long hard look at these new heads. Good to see the aftermarket is still alive and well for the SBF.

[Saleen91]

Brian didn't mention anything about being bought out... who knows. He did say that TEA is still doing all of the same things they did before. I didn't want to get too nosey in somebody elses business, but it's good to know Tooley & TEA are still around and making some cooler products.

[HoustonLX]

SWEET! You know Tooley and TEA have to be doing something right if TFS contracts them to be doing all their CNC porting programs. Now that his market just expanded (I am assuming anyway), I hope he is able to meet the demand. This brings on another question. Can you still buy the TFS TW 185's straight from TEA? If so, I wonder how his prices would compare to others like Summit. Seems you would be able to get them for cheaper from TEA vs someone like Summit since you would be getting it straight from the manufacturer/CNC porter. Although, that would seem to cause a conflict with places such as Summit. Kinda like buying regular TFS TW heads. You could not buy them straight from TFS. You had to go through one of its vendors like Summit. I need to really check on this since I do plan on going back to the TFS TW 185's or 205's for my next motor project.

[Thoroughbred]

Shane, did ur old TFS 185 heads outflow AFR185's? Just curious...

[Saleen91]

Shane,

Yes. Tooley said you can buy the TFS 185's straight from him. It will be the exact same TFS 185's that you can buy from Summit. I'm willing to bet his prices are on par with Summit for these new heads, but I haven't confirmed that.

Kevin,

My 2nd hand TEA TFS 185's outflow AFR 185's and flow comparible to AFR 205's....and mine were a reject set of TEA TFS 185's that somebody had tried to hand port before TEA put it on their CNC machine.

[Chad82GT]

That rocks!! But what are the Corral guys gonna do now that their precious AFR heads are no longer "top dog" ? (can you feel the sarcasm oozing off this comment???) LMAO

[HoustonLX]

Shane, did ur old TFS 185 heads outflow AFR185's? Just curious...


Yep! Like Ben said, my TFS TW 185's flowed about as much as AFR's 205's.

[89LX306]

That rocks!! But what are the Corral guys gonna do now that their precious AFR heads are no longer "top dog" ? (can you feel the sarcasm oozing off this comment???) LMAO


LOL! I guess it's going to be back to the old "bad valve guide" argument.
:rolleyes:

[HoustonLX]

Ok, this brings out yet another question. TEA flowed each and every set of heads they ported and sent the flow sheets to the buyer with the heads. Since the new 185's and 205's Summit will be selling were ported by Tooley and TEA, I wonder if every set of heads will still be flowed. Like if I buy mine from Summit, will I get a flow sheet for the set I got or will they just take an average over a certain set of heads and just use that as a basis for which to make a flow sheet to give to the customers?

[Saleen91]

I don't know if you'll get an individual flow sheet. Tooley did say that the flow specs for the current TEA CNC'd heads will be used for the new TFS CNC'd heads, but he considers those a little bit underrated for the new TFS CNC'd heads. He also that those numbers are being used because these new TFS CNC'd heads should read "atleast that number on anyones flowbench".

[Alex in Houston]

The heads are in the Summit amg with the Quad Deuce on the front (have had that one for at least a month).
I have AFR's as I had Valve Guide issues with TW and not because the Corralers like them (I have a personality dislike for that Ed Curtis and they suck his nut secreteion like it's Jesus Sweat) I think TFS spe4cialties just went with what worked for the competition (AFR)
Each his/her own Power is Power and thats what we all look for at the end of the day.

[White90GT]

According to Brian Tooley over on corral, the old CNC program they used for the older TFS heads required the heads to be cleaned up by hand porting after they're done on the CNC machine. This new design requires no hand work whatsoever, so they guarantee that every single head will flow the same. That said, I doubt they'll be flowing each individual head and providing the flow sheets.

[Chad82GT]

The heads are in the Summit amg with the Quad Deuce on the front (have had that one for at least a month).
I have AFR's as I had Valve Guide issues with TW and not because the Corralers like them (I have a personality dislike for that Ed Curtis and they suck his nut secreteion like it's Jesus Sweat) I think TFS spe4cialties just went with what worked for the competition (AFR)
Each his/her own Power is Power and thats what we all look for at the end of the day.
Hey, I was just messing around with the Corral statement ;) AFRs are great heads, can't deny the power.

I think its amazing that TFS is making 2 different castings now. JMHO, they should all be the same casting to give those who can't afford or don't need to step up to 205s the "potential" to do so later. I think it'd be a huge selling point. One of the reasons I like TWs so much is the potential in them... they're the last head most people will ever need. Sure they can get the "old" 205 CNC job, but it's not the same and doesn't flow as well as the "new" 205. Hopefully there will be a way to differentiate the 2 castings so no one tries to run the "new" program on an "old" head :eek:

I just looked up the price in that link Ben posted.... Holy crap in a handbasket, Batman!!! $1900 for the TW 185s! I hope they outflow the hell out of AFRs since they're now about $600 more. Not really a fair comparison with that much of a price difference.

[Saleen91]

Chad,

I don't think Tooley will be offering the tradition TEA CNC ported TFS heads anymore. It will all be the new TFS CNC'd heads. Also he said he didn't believe there would be a bare casting offered of this new design, but that a 165cc CNC ported TFS head may be available later this year as a bare bones version for the hand porters out there to use.

[Chad82GT]

Ben, what I meant was that lets say someone buys a new set of regular TWs (non-CNC'd) and uses them for a year or so, then wants to go faster. It sounds like that person would not be able to get their heads upgraded to the new 185 or 205 specs because the casting won't support it.

I think it's great that they've teamed up to make a kick-ass head, but at the same time the guy who can't afford (or doesn't need) the new CNC'd head won't be able to step up to them in the future because his casting won't support it. Like I said earlier, the "upgradeability" (is that even a word?) is a major selling point to me. I was just wondering aloud why there are 2 separate castings.

I understand it'd be silly to offer 2 versions of a CNC'd head (old casting and new casting) to a customer looking to purchase brand new heads. Hopefully TEA will continue to offer porting services for people to send in their "old" TW castings, which are bad-ass enough for 99% of the racers out there.

[red95gts]

Everyone keep two things in mind when comparing flow numbers:

1. Flow numbers on one bench vs another can be misleading. Flowing a head is an art of sorts and the numbers are not an exact science. Especially when flowing two different heads on two different benches with two different bench operators.

2. A 185cc Twisted Wedge and a 185cc AFR ARE NOT comparable. Port cross-section is different. If you want to compare, compare the TFS 185s to the AFR 205s. Conversely, compare the TFS 205cc to the AFR 225cc.... The port length is different on the two heads and the TFS's advertised port volume is misleading when comparing to virtually every other streetable SBF cylinder head.

[Blue91]

Due to the "twisted" config, right D?

[TRAXX]

Interesting stuff.....and thankyou D for that tidbit of info.

<-----has AFR 185s :D

[Chad82GT]

Yup, the TW intake port is shorter because the intake valve is rotated and moved a bit towards the center of the engine. Volume is a product of width, height and length, so a head with a shorter runner will have a smaller volume than one with a similar corss-section and longer runner.

Conversly, a head with a "skinny" cross-section and longer runner (like the AFR 185) will have a similar port volume to one with a short yet wide runner (like the TW).

Or something like that... ;)

[red95gts]

Yup, the TW intake port is shorter because the intake valve is rotated and moved a bit towards the center of the engine. Volume is a product of width, height and length, so a head with a shorter runner will have a smaller volume than one with a similar corss-section and longer runner.

Conversly, a head with a "skinny" cross-section and longer runner (like the AFR 185) will have a similar port volume to one with a short yet wide runner (like the TW).

Or something like that... ;)

Exactly! Port volume in it's simplest form would be:

height x width x length = volume

So, as the length is decreased, the product of the (height x width) MUST increase in order to maintain the same port volume....185cc for example.

The velocity of a head is based on it's cross-sectional area (height x width) vs. it's flow. Yeah, you could design a cylinder head that flows 400cfm through a HUGE port, but the velocity (and therefore cylinder filling) would be horrible. Well...on a 306ci at least.. :)

Just pointing this all out before anyone gets all excited about the new TFS 185cc outflowing the AFR 185cc. Considing they are both CNC finished and the TFS has a larger cross-section, the TFS 185 SHOULD outflow the AFR 185cc.... If not, it ain't worth a shit, IMHO.

Unfortunately for AFR, plenty of people will compare the two and incorrectly deduce the TFS is a "better" head, when in fact they are comparing apples to oranges... It's like saying a Victor Jr. flows more than a Edelbrock Performer RPM, so the Vic Jr. is automatically the "better" head - depends on what the application is!

Just my $.02