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View Full Version : Help Troubleshooting Idle, 5.0



maveRick
07-16-2004, 11:11 AM
Hey Guys,

I'm trying to get my '89 Mustang 5.0 to idle correctly. It surges from a very rough idle to a smooth idle - seemingly without reason. The engine is very sluggish when accelerating from poor (low) idle, and very responsive when NOT idling poorly.

Background:

1) I recently swapped motors. There was no problem with the idle on the original motor, only with the replacement motor.

2) I installed a 'B' cam on the replacement motor prior to installation. Note: This cam did not make another engine I had idle THIS poorly.

3) I am using a 160 deg Tstat. (note: before jumping to a conclusion on this, the idle has little or no change, hot or cold).

4) I removed the smog pump during engine swap (and plugged the vacuum lines).

5) I've 'screwed' with the idle screw - makes no difference.

6) I've polished all the grounds and re-tightened.

7) I've ensured all the electrical plugs are engaged tightly.

8) I've swaped the coil out with an MSD coil - seemed to help throttle response a little but has not affected the idle (much).

9) I've swapped the stock distributor with an MSD. Same result as 8.

10) I've adjusted the fuel pressure up and down to no avail (from ~37psi to ~42psi with line plumbed to FPR, higher when removed).

11) I removed the upper (Cobra) intake, replaced the gasket, and ensured the vacuum lines are terminated. There are three lines coming from underneath the upper (rest are plugged);
a) (1) ~3/8" line to vacuum manifold on firewall
b) (1) ~1/8" line going to vacuum 'junction' (for lack of a better word) on the passenger side
c) (1) ~1/8" dia going to FPR.


12) I've changed out the IAC with another one known-as-good. No change.

13) NOTICEABLE: THE EGR VALVE'S OPENING AND CLOSING IS COINCIDENT WITH THE IDLE'S FLUCTUATION.
a) When I remove the vacuum line from the EGR and plug the ends off (at EGR valve and hose), the idle rpm increases significantly and the throttle response is MUCH improved.
b) The vacuum reads ~10 in hsig (at idle) when the EGRV is by-passed and 0 when in hooked up (measured at firewall manifold).

c) When the EGR diaphram is 'engaged' (flexed towards rear of car) is when the engine's idle is at it worst. Best idle when diaphram is 'flexed' towards front of car.


I don't think the EGR valve is bad as it flucuatates with the vacuum change. I believe it to be something else (EEC?) causing the change in vacuum.

Also a question: Since I don't have another EGR valve (handy). Should I simply run it without the EGR valve hooked up? It seems to do the trick. What would be the harm?

Whatcha think?

Perplexed, I am

Rick

LilRedLX
07-16-2004, 11:57 AM
can you bring it tonite so that I can scan it?

I am wondering what your MAP voltage is.........same thing with your IACV (idle air control valve).

You said you messed with the TB pitch....did you also mess with its voltage? Wondering what the TPS is reading and if voltage on that thing is jumping around.

Lemme know......my nanny is in the hospital so I am taking shifts with my wife watching the kids. I'm best contacted on my cell because I'll be in and out of the shop today 281-726-1659.

maveRick
07-16-2004, 12:06 PM
can you bring it tonite so that I can scan it?

I am wondering what your MAP voltage is.........same thing with your IACV (idle air control valve).

You said you messed with the TB pitch....did you also mess with its voltage? Wondering what the TPS is reading and if voltage on that thing is jumping around.

Lemme know......my nanny is in the hospital so I am taking shifts with my wife watching the kids. I'm best contacted on my cell because I'll be in and out of the shop today 281-726-1659.


I'd be glad to let you hook it up tonight.

In the meantime, I'll check the voltages (if I can find my dang meter in all this mess).

Thanks-a-plenty.

Rick

LilRedLX
07-16-2004, 12:13 PM
Rick-ee.......you gunna bring some of that stuff to the hangout tonite? I want the rear bumper cover and Guff wanted something to do with the column.

Lemme know.....I got cash and a F*CKED up rear bumper!

maveRick
07-16-2004, 04:05 PM
(sorry, Lee. see other post about sold bumper. sorry. I'd rather have sold it to a PMFR guy).

UPDATE: I plugged off the EGRV and it's vacuum line.

If I'm not severely mistaken, the car pulls a BUTT LOAD better! It definetley has something to do with the EGR Valve.

I guess the e.t.'s will tell soon enough (I forsee an update to the TIMESLIP section. Then again, it could be because I've only been driving my ThunderTurd lately :confused: )

LilRedLX
07-16-2004, 05:44 PM
Rick-ee....you never said if your CHECK ENGINE light is on. It could be a small hole in the diaphram and even though its opening a little bit it could also make a vac. leak.

Another poss. is that the daiphram is weak from yrs of use and is opening too quickly thus causing a rich condition.

maveRick
07-16-2004, 06:27 PM
Rick-ee....you never said if your CHECK ENGINE light is on. It could be a small hole in the diaphram and even though its opening a little bit it could also make a vac. leak.

Another poss. is that the daiphram is weak from yrs of use and is opening too quickly thus causing a rich condition.


check engine is not on. It might be a hole in the diaphram (sounds like something you'd read in a teen pregancy forum). I gave Otis an EGRvalve recently and am going to Indian give it back - at least to test mine.

Thx.

Rick D.

LilRedLX
07-16-2004, 06:30 PM
My scanner would read something like that.......it deoends on what the EECIV can read. It would tell me the % of opening. You can cross multiply and devide and see if your opening linear to vac.

Sounds like you at least isolated it.....good job.

Blue91
07-16-2004, 08:42 PM
Lee
I have a rear LX cover I'll sell ya. Unfortunately, I can't bring it tonight, b/c it won't fit in the coupe with both of us at the same time.

It's OEM midnight blue and in GREAT shape. $50 work?

Oh, and on the subject. Definitely sounds like a bad EGR valve.

Also, fwiw, what TB are you using? If stock, do what Ken Slater recommended and clean the EDGES of the throttle blade (even though it seems you've found the prob, never hurts to do more free stuff). Also, since you've jacked with the idler screw, you should probably reset the idle using the method post in WSM's "tech" area (linked from their main page, written by FordTech. You're usually not supposed to adjust that idler screw on it's own, as it jacks stuff up computer wise.

And do as Lee said, check TPS voltage. Green and black if I remember right. Make sure it's under 1.00 v at idle and (with key on, engine off) over 4v (i think, lol, forgetting now) at WOT.

LilRedLX
07-23-2004, 01:58 PM
sold!

gc90notch
07-23-2004, 02:10 PM
hey rick...have you checked the smaller things.. like the voltage on your tps? mine was way high.. a little drill and a little maneuvering and it worked like a chump.. i mean champ. not hard to do either

maveRick
07-23-2004, 02:41 PM
hey rick...have you checked the smaller things.. like the voltage on your tps? mine was way high.. a little drill and a little maneuvering and it worked like a chump.. i mean champ. not hard to do either


Not as of yet, Gharett. After I bi-passed the EGR valve, it seemed to help a lot, but I'll still check it.

I'd still like to get that one from you. You gonna be at Lee's tonight? If so, could you bring it out? I'll give you one of Lee's beers for it. :smokin:

LilRedLX
07-23-2004, 08:55 PM
bastards! :cheers:

maveRick
07-24-2004, 10:17 AM
Well, we reset the voltage at the TPS, no deeferance. Darrell said it might be the EGV- er sumpin. :confused:

LilRedLX
07-24-2004, 01:58 PM
Rick......he is talking about a common prob. with Ford EGR's. Usually on FOrd there is a small silver box that meters the actions of the EGR valve. Its an electronic piece that has 2 vacumm lines that run to it (1 going to it and one coming from it). The one coming FROM it goes to the EGR and has 1 plug as well (3 wire). We have seen this ALOT on late model Ford F150's and Windstars. Its also refered to as a Delta Flow sensor in the Ford Tech manuals.

Its been awhile since I had to mess with emmisions on the Fox stuff so I can't tell you EXACTLY where to go, but prob next to the EGR. If this sensor is bad (which is alot of the time) it will lie to the computer as to EGR function thus creating a rich / lean condition.

On a "check engine" code it will read "EGR insufficient flow". Most shops will replace the EGR and the customer will be back the next day PISSED OFF!

If he is right about this part.......thats what the part looks like, thats what it does, and thats where it most likely is.

Even if the TPS did not fix the problem, what we did last night should make throttle responce MUCH better. You can even play with the voltage (up and down) to fine tune it to feel as you like. Your more than welcome to borrow my Fluke when ever you like.

Best of luck!

maveRick
07-24-2004, 02:16 PM
Thanks, Lee.