Timebomb Needs Help.

[Timebomb]

After helping Carl this past week trying to get his car to go quicker I have gotten the bug again to get ol blue out of the garage and to the track.

Ever since I put the motor in the car I'd had issues with the car not going up on the transbrake cleanly so that the car will launch. The carb has been back to Pro Systems once for a rebuild and David Cook has looked at it as well and made more adjustments to it but it still will not clean up. The carb is a PRO systems 1050 dominator with 92 jets in all corners. Darrell, Troy and I have played with it for countless hours and can't get it right....the car just won't clean up after about 2500 on the brake.

The converter has been out of the car once and taken back to Chris at Circle D and nothing was found wrong with it. It's a tight nitrous converter with the stall at about 3500. Ignition has been checked as well, it's a 7AL-2 with a msd 3 step and a digital retard. I can unplug the 3 step and it doesn't change anything....the coil is fine also. The fuel system is more than enough for the car and has been completely gone through as well, it's a ProStar 500 pump with new filters and rebuilt regulators. I've tried three other dominators now on the car and all 3 have the same problems....

I'm thinking that I have only two options at this point....
1) Take it to someone that can really take a look at it and try to fine tune the car....it may be something other than the carb but at this point I've exhausted all resources on trying to fix it.
2) Take the converter out and back to Circle D for a restall....I'm thinking that a stall in the 4500 range may wake the car up and allow it to rev past 2500. This may be beneficial anyway because I won't spray any more than about a 200 shot on this motor.

What do ya'll think my next course of action should be? If I was to take it to a shop to tune who would you recommend? I don't want to spend a mint on a dyno tune unless it's really needed, just want someone who would know what the heck could be wrong with it.

Thanks for the help guys.

[Blue91]

Considering how the carb worked on Carl's motor, I'm guessing it isn't a carb issue. Unfortunately, the only thing I can recommend is posting up the issue somewhere like yellowbullet or another site that has a LOT of racers on it... maybe someone else outside of our group has had/seen similar issues and knows what may be the cause. Good luck though... that thing is sooooo close.

[NiteRida]

You didn't mention spark plug wires. Sounds odd, but I had a set "go bad" on me. The resistance was really high. Just a thought. They were some old FMS wires I had since 1994.

Also, once I had a bad coil wire. It would miss/sputter right at 4000. This was on my 89 I had....

[Timebomb]

Wires are new Moroso Ultra 40s, the coil is a MSD Pro Power Coil. Thanks for the opinion Fred I will post this up on the bullet and see what kind of response I get.

[FE_rex]

Got silicone grease in the boots?

[Timebomb]

Yep....looks like the converter is coming out and going back to Chris... http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=271267

[White90GT]

Don't fear the looser converter! Give it another 1000 rpm and see what happens!

[Blue91]

Wonder if anyone has one you could try before having yours changed up?

[Timebomb]

I doubt I could without changing the flexplate also, considering my converter is somewhat custom anyway....it has a ford flexplate mount (4 bolts) instead of the standard powerglide 3 bolt because I wanted to use the flexplate that the motor was balanced with. I will talk to Chris this afternoon and make arrangements to get the converter back to him so that he can restall it in the 5500-6000 range. At this point it is the only thing it could be....either that or change the cam.

[red95gts]

Good Luck Brent, let me know if you need a hand!

[Timebomb]

Took the converter to Chris today he is going to loosen it up as much as he can. It's a 9.5" converter so he's a bit limited in how loose he can get it but he thinks we can get it pretty close to 6K. Should have it back this week and hopefully try and get the car to the track on Sunday.

[White90GT]

6k will be nice. Maybe a little high, just depends on where you make the power and shift. It should finally run some decent numbers n/a too!

[Chuck98GT]

Just tell him to leave the stator out, that should loosen it.

[Saleen91]

LOL Chris cracks me up. He's always so modest with "I think we can get it close" and then nails it spot on as if he wasn't even trying.

[Chad82GT]

Great googly moogly that's a helluva cam. 300 @ .050, does the valve ever fully close? LOL! J/K :) Glad you found a solid lead on your problem. I give you credit for sticking to it. It'll be all the more satisfying when you make a clean pass.

[White90GT]

Well what's the word?

[FE_rex]

Well what's the word?

The bird is the word (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aPvWQdAca4)

[Timebomb]

Wrenched on the car all day today. Got the converter and trans back in along with sanding down and painting the headers again. Took the car for one drive down the street, pulled out of the driveway, put the trans in neutral and cleaned the carb out, put it down in first and hit the transbrake and mashed the gas....BAM....instant 5K on the tach and no more hesitation...launched the car and it took off like a rocket spinning the tires very badly and was probably going about 75 when i shifted into second and let out of it. I think if Chris didn't nail it he got it real close....I now have something to work with! Going to spend part of the day tomorrow cleaning the car up, may try on hitting HMP tomorrow night but I will for sure be in Baytown next Friday night. Troy, I've been trying to call you all week, check your PMs and call me. Now it's time for a few beers and a little Football! Go Texans!

[NiteRida]

Glad to hear. Post the track results when you return.

[White90GT]

Congrats! I told you that thing was too tight. I bet it goes at least a 6.4x on motor now. Now to work on traction.

[Timebomb]

Carl, no offense but if it doesn't run a 6.4 on motor then I need to find another hobby!

[White90GT]

That's what I said about mine lol. Hopefully with this converter loosened in mine it will be better.

[Otis!]

Cool Brent! Let me know if you go out there next Friday! I'd like to see it run!

O!

[Saleen91]

That's awesome Brent! Congrats!

[Timebomb]

Heading to HMP tonight, I know Troy is going to meet me out there....anyone else going tonight?

[Saleen91]

I'd love to, but we just got back in town from camping all week yesterday...and I'm flying out in the morning.

Please post up how it goes tonight!!!

[red95gts]

Congrats Brent!! What time you heading out to HMP?

[Timebomb]

Gates open at 6.

[red95gts]

You think the car will run in 190 degree heat? :)

[White90GT]

You think the car will run in 190 degree heat? :)

It better LOL. I wanna see at least 108 mph in the 1/8 mile on motor.

[Blue91]

Post updates asap.

[White90GT]

I've been trying to call, no answer. Must still be there and busy.

[Timebomb]

Another day and more issues. The car will only go up to about 4800 or so on this converter and it's still rich as hell. The car makes absolutely no power until about 6K and then you better hold on to something! I made two passes, first was right off the trailer launched off the tbrake and then the car fell on it's face and went 7.0@100 with me shifting into second about 100 feet before the traps. With the car back in the pits we put it up and the brake then killed it and read a plug....rich as hell....so we back it down to 87 jets in the front and 88s in the rear (was at 92 in all corners). Pull back up to the line and the damn transbrake would not engage so I had to foot brake the car. It ran another 7.0@ 100 with the same issue. Troy and I talked with Javier for a bit about his combo and we decided to take some drastic measures.....we are going to really lean the thing out and see what happens....We went all the way down to 82s in all four corners, and backed the timing down from 36 to 32. A third pass wasn't in the cards though because my battery charger decided to crap out and the lanes where closing. I finally got the car started and loaded it back on the trailer.

We are going to try again next Friday at HRP to keep throwing the kitchen sink at it and see what it will do in the 1/4. If we can't figure it out one of two things will have to happen.....it's either time for a new cam that will work with this 9.5" converter or a new 8" converter that will work with this cam.

Thanks to Mike, Troy and his friends, and my brother for coming out.....I promise one of these days this damn car will eventually come alive and run a good number!

[White90GT]

Talk to Chris callous about his combo. Same heads and intake as u I believe.

[Timebomb]

Who? Are you talking about Calhoun?

[White90GT]

Yeah, my damn mobile phone changes what I'm typing from time to time when it thinks it knows what I'm trying to say LOL. Chris Calhoun. I know he's got Victor Glidden heads and intake on the car and David Cook built his carb. Granted he's running 2 kits on his car and purely running nitrous, but he comes up on his t-brake just fine.

[Saleen91]

Hang in there Brent. I'm fighting a long battle on just going straight. I make 3 steps forward and 2 steps back each time I go out testing.

[White90GT]

Brent, maybe its at the point where you should try to spray it? If its cleaning up enough to hit 4800 on the brake, see what it does on the smallest shot you can put in the fogger (100?).

[Timebomb]

Carl I need to get it where it's not fouling out the plugs and they look good before I hit the nitrous to it. I have the 175 jets in the fogger now and probably won't go any lower than that. Troy and I where very tempted to turn the bottle on but resisted the urge until we get it halfway right. Friday night I'm going to try and lean the carb way out and much hotter plug and see if we can get it to come around....I remember at one point when Darrell and I where messing with the tune by getting the car up on the brake we had the plugs about perfect and the car the next time at the track started acting up again. Carl, what did FTI charge you for a cam?

[Chuck98GT]

FTI used to charge $325 for a a HR. If you go full billet it might be a little more. Who's cam is in there now?

[White90GT]

From Ed Oct 22, 2009:
"A solid roller camshaft will run you $375 shipped"

[Timebomb]

That isn't that bad of a price and much cheaper than another converter. Chuck, I purchased the entire top end of a 427 motor that was built by BB&T Racing in Mississippi from a friend who lives in Arkansas. BB&T speced the cam and had comp grind it. The 427 had less compression that I have now but I have 34 less cubic inches.

[63T-Bolt]

Brent, Have a direct contact at comp cams, John Williams. If you look on YB you will find his name mentioned. He is a stand up guy and will find you the power you want. Just thought I would mention, because you can actually run the cam by him and tell him whats going on and he can tell you what he thinks. The bonus is you can actually find him at the track racing at a TT5 event semi local to you.

[Chuck98GT]

I would say a cam change is order. For less than $400, you probably stand to pick up signifigant HP and Torque everywhere in your power band. You probably won't get better band for your buck at this point (besides nitrous).

What Distributor gear are you running? I've seen a lot of the steel gears get eaten up on the solid roller cams. Usualy a switch to bronze is required. Have you looked at yours latey?

[Timebomb]

MSD bullet distributor with a bronze gear and it's brand new. Pat is that the contact at comp that Troy gave you?

[63T-Bolt]

MSD bullet distributor with a bronze gear and it's brand new. Pat is that the contact at comp that Troy gave you?



No. He has done cams for several local people and did work with Steve Petty and a few others along the way ( Chris " The Mud Duck " Derrick ring a bell???) He is a great guy and can give you the information you need to make the right call. He runs a BBC/spray powered 66 Chevelle on radials at a bunch of events, The Street Machine Nationals at Marty Chance's Ozark Raceway Park in Missouri is one you will certainly find him at. If your cam will work he straight up will let you know.

[Timebomb]

Car is loaded up and we are going to try one more time tomorrow night at HRP in Baytown. We have a few things to try out and if we can't get the result we want it's probably time for a cam swap. It will be interesting to see what kind of mph it will pull on the top end of the 1/4 if it won't get out of it's own way in the first 330 feet!

[63T-Bolt]

let us know man. really would like to see that thing fly like it should!!

[Silversnake91]

I'm off so I may make the trip out there to help any way I can. Not having my car is really starting to bring that itch back. Good luck Brent if I don't make it out there.

Mike

[Timebomb]

Didn't go so well last night. We started tinkering with the jets and timing and where making improvements with each change we made. Track was in horrible shape though....first pass I got so loose that I took out my first cone at 1000'. The only full 1/4 mile pass I made was with the car cutting in and out and letting off about 100 feet before the finish and it went 121. Third pass we thought we had a good set up in the car and if the plugs looked god we where probably going to try the bottle next time out. I do my burnout and the car doesn't sound quite right and dies when I pull up. I restart it, stage and after I launch it sputters and coughs about twice so I let out of it knowing that something is wrong. I'm able to make the first turn off and we tow it back to the pits. Troy says he thought he saw white smoke out of the passenger bank, so we start pulling plugs....it didn't take long....this is what #1 looked like:3098

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn162/Shroom73/EatenSparkPlug.jpg

We pulled the valve cover and the #1 exhaust valve for sure is to blame for this. The spring is a good inch higher than the rest of the others after taking the rockers off. The valve stem is still there and moves freely but no telling what the head or cylinder wall looks like.

I will pull it into the garage later and pull the motor out in the next few days and disassemble everything to see what the damage is. I'm sure that Naiser can fix whatever is wrong with the head. The the block is screwed then I will probably be out of commission for a while.

More pictures to follow.

[Saleen91]

ouch... hang in there Brent. Just keep knocking away at it a little by a little.

[White90GT]

That stinks, hopefully its minor, but if it did that to the plug, my guess would be a piston is damaged too. Good luck man.

[Timebomb]

I'll get pictures up in about an hour or so. I pulled the head and the is truth that titanium is stronger than aluminum.

The head of one of the valves is stuck in the piston. The block looks ok there is some minor scoring on the walls but nothing real major. Head is damaged but should be no problem to get fixed.

http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn162/Shroom73/IMG00059-20100821-1338.jpg
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn162/Shroom73/IMG00061-20100821-1339.jpg

Upon tear down I did discover what was probably the issue with the car. Several intake bolts where loose and there is evidence of some piston to valve problems.
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn162/Shroom73/IMG00060-20100821-1339.jpg
Both heads will come off and off to Naiser for repair and I will order a new piston and try and get it back together....not sure on timeframe yet.

[red95gts]

Ouch..that sucks to hear, Brent. :(

[Otis!]

Sorry to hear and see that Brent. Good luck getting it fixed...

[White90GT]

Sucks dude. gotta rebalance everything too. good luck.

[Blue91]

Not necessarily.

[63T-Bolt]

I know if its a JE piston, they typically have build numbers to them (if they were custom units.) They can remake a minimum of 4 pistons for you. If they are just off the shelf units, they are +/- 1gram anyways which is well within what a good majority of shops balance to anyways.


When ever you order custom pistons, order 12.... especially if your using nitrous!!!

[Saleen91]

Was there evidence of P/V issues on every hole?

[Timebomb]

Yes, there is evidence of it on every exhaust relief on the piston on the bank that I pulled the head off of.

Pat, I'm pretty sure that these where standard off the shelf JE pistons for use with Victor heads. Troy had the top of the pistons milled off about 20 thou to get the piston inside the bore when the shortblock was assembled.

I will pull the motor out next weekend and completely tear it down to see what can be saved. If it looks like I can save the block, crank and rods, I may just order another set of custom pistons for it and put it back together.

[red95gts]

Did the motor over-rev? Do you think the P-V clearance issues have been there all along or is this something that just popped up at HRP?

[Chad82GT]

Did the motor over-rev? Do you think the P-V clearance issues have been there all along or is this something that just popped up at HRP?

Excellent questions, D. I'd like to add a few too:

Who assembled the longblock?
Who spec'd the springs and set up the valvetrain?
Did you slack the valve adjustment when the car was down? If not, how long were the springs sitting there adjusted?

Be sure to have your head guy check spring pressures as that could lead to why this happened. IMWO, new springs are mandatory here.

[Timebomb]

No the motor didn't over rev, I had the limiter set on 7800 and never even got close to it. Troy assembled or had a shop assemble the shortblock a long time ago. Darrell and myself along with many others installed and checked everything else. When we clayed the pistons we had well over 80 thou on the exhaust and over 100 thou on the intake so we thought everything should be fine. The valve springs are not new but I did check them with a tool a few months ago and where within range but on the verge of needing replaced. Even when the car was down I made it a point to start it every 10-14 days or so and let it run so that the valvetrain wouldn't bind up.

I think it's just an error on my part, claying pistons is only as accurate as the guy using the razor blade and the calipers to measure the clay. The heads may have just expanded when hot and made it easier for the valve to come into contact with the piston.

What ever I do will depend on what I find out on the pistons when I get the motor out of the are dissasembled. At that point I will decide if I'm going to try this same cam again or go with something else. Whatever I do the heads will defiently get a new set of springs to match whatever cam I go with.

[BigRed]

Sucks to see this Brent. As if enough wasn't enough.

In the meantime drop a 302 with a shot of gas on it and go racin! :)

[Rusman]

Wow, Brent, this really sucks. Hope you get it resolved soon!

[White90GT]

Sucks to see this Brent. As if enough wasn't enough.

In the meantime drop a 302 with a shot of gas on it and go racin! :)

I know, we need to put together some type of a community pot for a backup motor for events like this. Guys throw in some leftover parts or whatever and get a complete carbed 302 setup with longtube headers and distributor and carb, a couple different flywheel/flexplate options, etc... and have it stored in someones garage wrapped up until needed.