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View Full Version : EFI 408 starting issues.... HELP...



NiteRida
07-17-2008, 12:06 AM
My car is currently “track only”. The current engine has been in the car since 2002. It sits for a while between uses (up to 2 months or more at a time). The only way I was able start after sitting in April and then this past weekend is a “shot” of starting fluid. Once it does start it runs like crap (i.e. rough). This is a new problem that I’ve never previously experienced. Prior to April it's always started right up.

I installed a new converter in April and finally go it started to get the fluid level check. Didn't try it again until this past Sunday. On Sunday I decided to go to the track and again it wouldn’t start. Shot of starting fluid and it finally fired. Without the starting fluid it would just turnover and stumble every now and then like it wanted to fire.

Here's what I've done to date to troubleshoot:

*Snap-on diagnostic tool did not show any codes.
*Fuel pump is a Aeromotive A-1000 and maintains the set fuel pressure under a load (WOT).
*Changed the filter before and after the pump in December 2007.
*I pulled the Accel coil and put on the stock coil. Still wouln't start.
*I bypassed the 6AL (while stock coil was on) and still wouldn't start.
*Pulled the chip out of the EEC computer, still wouldn't start.
*Pulled a spark plug and layed it on a grounded metal surface and had a nice blue spark - wanted to confirm I had a spark.
*While cranking, the fuel pump is running and maintaining the set fuel pressure. I used the factory fuel pump relay trigger wire as the trigger wire for the Aeormotive pump relay.
*Installed brand new MSD plug wires. My FRPP had high resistance (some were REAL bad). Still wouldn't start.
*cleaned all the terminals on the cap/rotor. Still wouldn't start
*re-base lined the TPS and set it. (0.995 volts at 0.010" gap, then idle screw turned in 1.5 x's). This is how I've always set the base line and it's been perfect.
*checked the injector harness with a "Noid". It's a light you plug into the injector harness. If it lights up, then the injector is receiving voltage. Still won't start..
*installed new plugs... still won't start

Shoot some staring fluid in it....... Ta-Da... it fires up and runs. Not smooth, but will run.

I've got spark, timing is correct, compression, fuel pressure, injectors are getting the signal from the computer....

I’m thinking that it’s the injectors. I bought them back in 1994. So, they are 14 years old and do a lot of sitting around. Probably have less then 1000 miles on them. They are the dark blue topped 36 lb/hr.

The only thing that’s changed since I’ve had this issue is a converter swap. Nothing was touched with computer, ignition, etc.

Any other thing I should check before getting new injectors? Thoughts?

Thanks.

Jon.

White90GT
07-17-2008, 08:34 AM
sounds like you've done a pretty good job of narrowing it to the injectors. See if you can borrow a MAF and injectors that someone isn't currently using just to see if it works. Or just find some 36 lbers. If its got pressure at the injector, and you are seeing power to the injectors, then perhaps they are gummed up and/or weak.

Saleen91
07-17-2008, 12:08 PM
I'm thinking injectors as well.

red95gts
07-17-2008, 03:48 PM
Injectors will corrode closed if they sit for a while. You can pull them all out and soak them in a EFI injector cleaner and test them on the bench to ensure they are opening. It could very well be that they need to be replaced, considering the age and low mileage.

I assume that the car will start with the starting fluid, but not run very long?

NiteRida
07-22-2008, 08:37 PM
The plan is to send the injectors to http://www.witchhunter.com/index.php4 for a cleaning and flow test. I called them and talked to the owner today. All they do is injectors and he answered every question I had.

I will also replace the fuel line from the pump to the "Y" block and each piece from the "Y" block to the rails. It's about 15 years old and could be "breaking down" and letting junk into the injectors.

I will also move my 10 micron filter (currently coupled to the outlet of the Aeromotive A1000 pump) to the "Y" block. The objective is to get is as close to the injectors as possible and down stream of as much fuel line as possible. The Aeromotive tech rep said that was a good idea and filter should be mounted as close as possible to the part you are trying to protect.

I feel good about sending the injectors off to be tested/cleaned. This way I'll know for certain of the flow (as received and "cleaned").

Jon.

red95gts
07-22-2008, 09:27 PM
I will also move my 10 micron filter (currently coupled to the outlet of the Aeromotive A1000 pump) to the "Y" block. The objective is to get is as close to the injectors as possible and down stream of as much fuel line as possible. The Aeromotive tech rep said that was a good idea and filter should be mounted as close as possible to the part you are trying to protect.



That's a good point. Never thought about that...

Hope this takes care of it!

Boosted50
07-25-2008, 11:55 AM
Any updates, I am curious to the outcome?

NiteRida
07-25-2008, 12:28 PM
Any updates, I am curious to the outcome?

Just finished pulling the injectors. I checked each one with a 9v battery to confirm that they were opening (injector = fancy solenoid). All were opening. However, each one had nice "crusty" stuff on top of it... This is a pump gas motor (10.2:1) and I've always used Texaco or Exxon... but who knows where they actually get the stuff from...

Each injector has a filter built into the top of it. They all look dirty... So, hopefully the cleaning will "fix it". I'm boxing the injectors up and sending them off to the company that I put in a previous link. The major indicator will be the "as received" test. Hopefully it will be bad... and once cleaned my problems will be solved (crossing fingers as I type)....

Stay tuned...

NiteRida
08-06-2008, 11:21 PM
well, I'm confident that the injectors were a major contributing factor. I haven't reinstalled them yet, but if you look at the chart I only had2 decent ones. Hopefully I'll get them installed this weekend or next.

I can't believe how bad they were.....

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/4192/12944/250018.jpg

Silversnake91
08-07-2008, 02:06 AM
Wow. Almost makes me want to pull mine since I let the car sit so long between starts. I started it a few weeks ago and it started ok and then ran smooth after a minute or so. I haven't started it since then. I guess I should find the 10-15 minutes to get out there and let it run.


Mike

Otis!
08-07-2008, 09:37 AM
Jon,

Can you give us a ballpark on that service? My <s>347</s>, er, 5.0 in my '91 runs rough after it gets warmed up, and I let it sit for months on end...

BTW fellas, I put a new battery in it the other day, and drove it around the block! 223 miles on it now!

O!

red95gts
08-07-2008, 10:50 AM
Jon,

I let it sit for months on end...



Months?! :)

Acccording to their website, it's $18/injector, so $144/set.... It's probably worth it for high-dollar injectors, but probably not for the run of the mill 19-30#ers...

gt350mustang
08-07-2008, 12:33 PM
Jon,

Can you give us a ballpark on that service? My <s>347</s>, er, 5.0 in my '91 runs rough after it gets warmed up, and I let it sit for months on end...

BTW fellas, I put a new battery in it the other day, and drove it around the block! 223 miles on it now!

O!
This post requires video confirmation. :eeek:

NiteRida
08-07-2008, 05:05 PM
Months?! :)

Acccording to their website, it's $18/injector, so $144/set.... It's probably worth it for high-dollar injectors, but probably not for the run of the mill 19-30#ers...

Almost... the return shipping is also $10. So, for $154 (+ what it cost you to ship them to him) you can't go wrong.

I bought my injector new about 14 years ago. For an EFI car, it's something to strongly consider (especially with a power adder...).

So, Ben... what confidence do you have that your injectors are flowing correctly since your car had been down? Can you imagine if I was running a dry shot or boost.... I bet you are thinking... hmmmmmmm

If you are considering this, then you should call the place I sent mine. All they do is injector cleaning and flow testing.

Jon.

NiteRida
09-05-2008, 12:33 PM
The dirty injectors was definitely my problem. Finally got some time off of work today so I started it for the first time. WOW. It actually starts, idles, revs smooth, and revs fast. I'm so excited! I'm headed to HRP tonight to test it out. Weather seems nice today. Barely broke a sweat mowing the yard...

Jon.

NiteRida
09-11-2008, 01:38 AM
Clean injectors made a difference. 10.85 @ 123 with a 1.51 short. @ HRP on September 5th. First decent outing with new converter...

http://www.mustangmods.com/ims/u/4192/12944/255351.jpg

red95gts
09-11-2008, 09:01 AM
Nice!

Saleen91
09-11-2008, 01:11 PM
Jon,

Is that your 1 pass for every 3 years? If so, put it up and we'll see it out again in 2011 ;)

NiteRida
09-12-2008, 10:00 PM
Jon,

Is that your 1 pass for every 3 years? If so, put it up and we'll see it out again in 2011 ;)

Yes, which is a root cause of my injector problem... lack of use.

I should have put some floaties on it before we left. I put it up on jack stands as high as I could.. After I rebuild the house (if it gets wet.. League City), then I'll be able to race again.

Jon.